Colleague Sandra: 'Don’t be afraid to swim against the tide'

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  • Diversity and inclusion

As a new mother, Sandra Phlippen (44), chief economist at ABN AMRO, experienced inequality in the workplace of her then-employer. This was the first and last time that she was made so clearly aware of the difference between men and women. We’re a bank that strives for a culture in which everyone can be themselves. But are we managing to do that, and if so, to what extent? In the run-up to International Women’s Day, we talked to Sandra about this.

What do equal opportunities mean to you?

'That if two people with the same set of skills embark on something new, they have an equal chance of succeeding. In other words, they have the same chance of achieving the goals they have set for themselves.'

Have you ever experienced inequality?

'Yes. When I worked at the university and had a baby, I was told that it would be a good idea to reduce my hours. Surely I had to do a lot of washing and care for my child? My husband, who worked at the same faculty, was not given this piece of unsolicited advice. As I thought they must have my best interests at heart, I decided to work fewer hours. Perhaps I was a bit naive, because my contract was altered and after a while, I found myself working every weekend. I went to my manager to inform them that something had gone wrong when my hours were reduced and that I wanted to work full-time again. It turned out that what I understood to be a full working week wasn’t actually a full working week. I had to work 40 hours a week and weekends. This was "normal". I was furious and refused flat out. They acceded and amended my contract. I can be very assertive if I think I’m being treated unfairly.'

How do you deal with inequality?

‘I’ve learned to be very factual and explicit about my wishes. And not to be afraid to swim against the tide. After leaving the university, I joined the bank where my new manager said: “I don’t agree with all this working from home. If you want to be a manager, you need to be there, in the workplace, every day.” “Okay,” I replied, “I’ll do that for a few weeks and see whether it makes a difference.” After the few weeks’ trial, I went back to my manager and said that I’d done as they suggested and thought there was another way that we could achieve our goal. The goal was to maintain feeling with your colleagues, and know what your team is doing. You can also do this by going into the office at the beginning and the end of the week, and arranging other interactions for the rest of the time. My manager agreed. So you don’t always have to do exactly what your manager says. If you’re clear about the goals that your manager has in mind, and you make a good alternative plan that you’re able to substantiate, I think you’ll come across as being very professional. You’d be unlikely to be told “no”. Working from home for part of the week fitted in better with my routine. And of course the Covid-19 pandemic completely changed people’s assumption that not being in the office meant not doing any work.’

Why are equal opportunities important?

‘As a manager at the bank, I have the same expectations of men as I do of women. Research has shown that companies with a relatively large proportion of women on the Executive Board lost less market value during the 2008 financial crisis. I’m not sure what to make of studies like this…I don’t think that my female colleagues have a different set of values to my male colleagues. But the skills that they do have need to be capitalised upon. Unequal pay based on gender is nothing new. I hope that things will soon change in this respect. In any case, I prefer to look at people’s performance rather than their gender. I’ve never had to fight for my salary at ABN AMRO. My manager said to me: “I’ve already negotiated your salary. I will see to it personally that working in this job, you will never receive a penny less than your male predecessor.” I’m still very grateful to him for this. On the other hand, his actions may well be confirmation that this practice still exists, or at least once existed.’

How can we achieve equal opportunities?

‘By not making assumptions. I have never said to someone “Shouldn’t you spend more time at home?” When I was asked this question, it was probably with the best intentions but from a very old-fashioned standpoint. If employers are more aware of the questions they are asking, and the assumptions on which they are based, it will help us to create equal opportunities for everyone. But there’s still a long way to go: I recently read a report about how men and women shared the tasks during the pandemic. It had a very telling title: Turning back the clock. Guess what? During the pandemic, women took on comparatively more household chores and spent fewer hours working than their male counterparts. It’s such a shame. On the other hand, there is currently a broad movement within society that will help us to generate equal opportunities. We are all becoming more alert and more aware of societal inequality. As a result, a whole spectrum of personal traits and skills are becoming more difficult to assign specifically to men or women. Certain “boundaries” are becoming fluid and we are less inclined to stick labels on people.’

This interview is part of a series of interviews about equal opportunities, in which we talk to various colleagues about the obstacles that we still need to overcome, both as a bank and as a society. With our comprehensive diversity and inclusion policy, we give special attention to women, the LGBTI+ community, people with occupational disabilities, people from different cultural backgrounds, and senior citizens. Click here for more information.